Yzabel
I quite understand the gripes about advertising, to be honest. I've tried AdSense on another blog I keep, because I thought it'd be at least interesting to learn the ropes of this, but on my "main" blog, I haven't resorted to ads. In fact, the only kind of money I may make out of it is through the Amazon Associates system, which idea I dig out (putting in my blog links to books I'd anyway link to, and images of books I'd anyway place in my posts because a small image is always nice to have here and there in the flow of text). Probably I won't make any cash out of it, alright. It's just one of these "using it doesn't harm" things, as I don't think it slows down a page the way a couple blocks of ads can do. The truth in all of this is that I'm not fond of ads. They tend to seriously bother me when I visit other people's blogs and websites. I'll still read the blog and view the pages (instead of only reading in my aggregator), but I don't like the ads. I don't think I ever will.
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
Now that makes sense to me, Yzabel, using Amazon Associates to enhance articles rather than distracting the reader from your posts. If the banner and sidebar ads were as discreet, I'd not feel as bad about them. Possibly I'm taking the easy way out, deciding to have nothing to do with advertising at all. ;)
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Mark Cross
Clive: Another interesting read. I came to the same decision as you on blog ads some time back. On an A-list blog they might be worth the effort but I agree that for the vast majority of us little is gained by their inclusion and much is lost. I visit many obviously non A-list blogs where the ads far outweigh the content. I'm sure they saw some A-lister do it this way and decided if it worked for them it will work for me. Not so. Maybe if you are drawing in Ten thousand hits a day but when a good day for you is 100 the law of large numbers are against you since only a very small percentage of visitors to any site actually click through on the ads. I think there is something to be said for a return to simplicity and I have come across a growing trend (not dominate but growing) across the blogosphere where bloggers are downsizing, stripping their sites of all extraneous material and embracing a "content is king" mentality. I for one welcome this. In the days ahead I shall be embracing it myself with my own site.
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
Hear, hear, Mark. Is it possible that common sense will prevail in the blogosphere? ;)
Date Added: 07/08/2005

John (SYNTAGMA)
Clive, I hear what you say. I've has a small banner AdSense ad up for a few days on SYNTAGMA because I read somewhere that Google will spider you more frequently if you have it. Now I read that that isn't so. Consequently, in an expression of solidarity, I'm taking it off. I'll leave the Amazon book ad up though as that can be made to link in with content. You are becoming an evangelist, Clive. Keep fighting the good fight!
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
Onwards, ever onwards into the bright new dawn of the tertiary blogosphere, John! :D
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Josh
Hallelujah. I can stop dropping annoying hints. :P
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
I may be slow, Josh, but I usually get the message in the end. ;)
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Anthony
great blog...keep it up.
Date Added: 07/08/2005

josh
Most folks don't realize that, when it comes down to it, AdSense is actually an IFRAME, which is the equivalent to displaying a completely different page within yours. That's what accounts for the page jump, really. The IFRAME was an afterthought added by MS to HTML, so it is to this day rendered quite chunkily by other browsers.

Its a neat idea, really: Google AdSense spiders your pages searching for keywords, which are entered in a database. When the same page is requested by joe schmoe, the url is passed to the AdSense server by the script, and part of a pre-fabbed list of links related to the original keywords are displayed as an HTML page. the sheer scale of the endeavor is mindboggling, and a credit to the ingenuity and verve out at the Googleplex.

That being said, it is content that lies too far from my control; therefore, it is not nearly worth it.

Besides -- the world has enough advertising already. Soon enough you won't find a urinal without an LCD above it, which refuses to flush until the spot for Gilette Mach 10 razors is over. :)
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
Thank you, Anthony!
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Gone Away
The cleverness of the technology behind Adsense is amazing, just as you say, Josh. What a pity that Google's ingenuity has to be poured into something as annoying as advertising, however!
Date Added: 07/08/2005

Yzabel
Yes, I agree that the search bar and little things like that are a tad bit intrusive. That's the kind of things I stuff at the bottom of the page--I don't care if people don't use/see them: it's on the page, it's not too aggressive when loading it due to being placed below, and nobody can say that I didn't respect my part of the deal when it comes to putting them on. The links to the books are anyway the one thing I'll place on top. I know very well that I wouldn't even have to do that, but my weird self tends to be bothered by the concept of "not doing it when my readers as well as myself can benefit off it" (they have the links to order directly, after all, it's easy). I guess it'll always be time to remove it if it becomes too obtrusive. As a sidenote, these advertising matters tend to be a headache, come to think of it. I want t owrite on my blog for pleasure... not wory my head about what's the better placement for an ad every time I look at it ;)
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Josh
Yeah Gone, but like the old saying goes:

Cash, Gas or *ss - nobody searches for free. :P
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Gone Away
Just as a matter of interest, Yzabel, do you make any money out of the ads?
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Gone Away
Ooh, cynical, Josh. But it surprises me that my button links to directories haven't been sneered at as a form of advertising (yet). I can see that they could be regarded as such since they involve a transaction - I give the directories a plug, in return for which I appear in their lists and get the occasional visitor as a result. And my answer is that I'll amend my definition of advertising to mean only that which involves moolah!

I know that's fudging the issue but give me time to think about the buttons - they might well disappear too (apart from the WBA one, of course).
Date Added: 08/08/2005

John (SYNTAGMA)
There is a lot of hidden advertising in blogs. E.g. I supply a link to one of my posts that is relevant to Problogger's 31-day campaign, I get a link back and oooodles of traffic. It's a transaction like any other, but a friendly one in which no money changes hands. If said traffic clicks on the iFrames though, I get money from a third party. A very British arrangement, I think :-)

BTW, when is the blog coming up over at WBA, Clive?
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Gone Away
To be honest, my main concern over the advertising is one of aesthetics and functionality. They "uglify" blogs and slow them down. So I am less concerned about the discreet form of advertising that comes from mutual links - it's not "in yer face".

I am hoping that the blog will go up shortly, John, but much depends on how busy Mad is. I've not seen him yet this morning but I know he didn't manage to get anything done over the weekend (such a full calendar the lad has...).
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Quills
I've restricted advertising on the book review site I help to run to only amazon associate links, and the occasional 'we recommend' link. I don't know that anyone has ever even purchased a book through our links, but it enhances the look of the site. I also have two small associates links on the front page, but otherwise the site is advertising free. I've gone the way of syndicating quality sites that I approve of, so that a section of the site offers an over view of the latest blog topics from various sections of the blogosphere. On Quill itself, the only 'index/directories' that I've linked to are the ones that have sent me traffic at the rate of more than one click a day. The reasons why we blog should NOT be tied into traffic or material return, but in educational and enjoyment returns. I get my interaction with other bloggers by going looking for them, and commenting, rather than waiting for them to come to my site.
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Gone Away
Enhancement I'm all for, Quills. And it's clear that you've thought hard about your strategy with blog advertising. But how many bloggers do that? I suspect that most have dollar signs in their eyes and just plonk the ads anywhere.

Agreed about interaction with other bloggers; if we sit and wait for them to visit, we could have a long wait! ;)
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Ken
I'm impressed and delighted. Art for art's sake is definitely the way forward. We are the counter-culture, forty years on! Remember that piece you posted asking where the agenda of the Sixties had gone? Now we know! The more subversion the better. Changing minds is what it's all about.
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Gone Away
Ahah, Ken you are a kindred spirit indeed!
Date Added: 08/08/2005

Josh
If I'm not mistaken, all of those GIF's reside on remote servers, yeah? GIF tracking is how those directories operate -- so I'm afraid if you've signed up, yep, its quid pro quo. Question is and has been in the last few posts, what's the long-term cost/benefit analysis say? God forbid sites with names like dubdubdub dot BLOGOSAURUSREX dot com would be in it for the profit, putting aside the best interest of the community!

:P
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Gone Away
Please don't tell me that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Josh! :|

As you say, one must weigh the benefit against the cost. It is doubtful whether the directories help a great deal. One of them has a neat little facility (supposedly for the use of your visitors who click on their button - they don't tell you about it) that tells you how many visits you've had from their directory. On average, I get one a day from that directory and it's one of the better ones. I have the scales out here and am weighing carefully...
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Yzabel
Clive, as a matter of fact, the AdSense stuff so far has provided me enough to buy a cup of coffee ;) I've only started with it late middl-July though, and I'm not too intent on promoting, promoting, promoting, so it's something I was expecting. I'm probably not the best example to follow regarding ads optimization. As for the Amazon links, nothing yet, but as written above, at least these ones I can use to enhance the blog, and they make the links for me instead of forcing me to download the images, write the HTML etc (I already write my posts in two languages, I can be a little lazy here!).
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Gone Away
It was never my intention to lay down the law regarding ads, Yzabel. If I have made a few bloggers think about their ad policy, that is sufficient. And may you have many more cups of coffee paid for in the future! :)
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Quills
How many people have actually advertised on google? Even if you put your daily budget at £1 a day, and put it at 0.04 cents a click, the traffic estimate puts your hits at about 200 a day. Whether that would actually be the case I don't know, but has anyone here tried paid advertising, as opposed to selling advertising space first? How did it pay off? (no pun intended there)
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Gone Away
I don't know of anyone who has tried that, Quills, although I see plenty of bloggers buy credits and banners on the traffic exchanges. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing a blog advertised through Google. We're a tight-fisted (or poor) bunch!
Date Added: 09/08/2005

Quills
Maybe I'm just weird for having considered then. I probably will do a couple of little google campaigns. I already spend x amount on my server; and I saved a bundle of money on that; maybe there is something in looking at a wider marketing campaign budget? I think I'll considering it again once I've actually finalised my site design though. No point in going off 'alf cocked.
Date Added: 09/08/2005

raul
Ok, If you give your work free, how do you pay your rent, sons education, car, supermakets, books? The sin is not to receive money for your work, the sin is when the company explote to their programmers or writers or so and so. If I write a short story or novel why must I give free? I spent 14 years to write my last novel, hence why must I place this free in Internet?
Date Added: 03/12/2005

raul
to be honest, how do you live? How do you pay your taxs, rent, educational service, food, health? I live making web page, selling programms this is my work, I would like to live writing books, novels, short story, but now and for ever its impossible.
Date Added: 03/12/2005

Gone Away
All good questions, Raul, and I will attempt to answer them. Let me say first that it's a bit outside the scope of my article, which was directed at those who are never going to make much money from ads on their blogs. The number of people who make a living from blogging is very small and is likely to remain so. For the rest of us, the ads never provide more than a few cents a month, if that.

As for placing your writing on the internet, there is no obligation to do so. What I put in the blog I regard as given away; I will never make anything from these articles and short stories. They are there as a sample of my writing for any "real" publishers that might be interested in my books. And that's where I expect to make money - through the traditional publishing of books, not through the internet. E-publishing looks interesting but I'm not prepared to go that route yet; it needs several years before it becomes a genuine threat to traditional publishing, I think.

My circumstances are considerably different from yours, I suspect. Even if I wanted to work to earn money, Uncle Sam would not allow it as I am a recent immigrant to this country. I am ancient and most of the expenses you mention are no longer my concern. So, yes, it's easy for me to say "drop the ads"; but unless you've decided to be a professional blogger, my advice still holds good. There's no real money in them for the vast majority of bloggers and all they do is clog the blogosphere and make it ugly. Have a look at how much you've made from your blog ads - if it's more than pocket money, I'll be very surprised.
Date Added: 03/12/2005

raul
I charge 2400 euros for website, its not all for me, only 30%, the rest is for programmer, designer, vendors,etc. Really from this scale and point of view ads blog is not good business, I agree with you, its not the startup time 7 or 8 years ago, when You had good idea, get 1 or 2 million dollar or investor and plade web site. My question is about the work, if you spent 20 hours writing a short story or programma, you have to charge or any have to pay this hours, probably your job pay your 20 hours writing a freeware program o you have a good retirement or you are millionaire , in the rest of the cases you need (mastercard) get money. Probably its not my motivation to receive money for short story or essay or novel, but I need money to your family life. Your opinion about publisher is really thruth, ebook is not profitable.
Date Added: 03/12/2005

Gone Away
And I agree with you, Raul; if I were to spend 20 hours writing anything, I would expect to be paid for it. But a blog post takes me between 2 and 3 hours to write. That's not too much time to give away free if the hope is that it might persuade a publisher to consider my books.

Any business requires a certain amount of investment and risk. And, when it's your own money on the line, you make pretty sure that it has a good chance of succeeding before risking it! Blogging, however, gives me the chance to get a readership without investment of money. If that increases my chances of getting published, I'll take the chance of giving stuff away for free. ;)
Date Added: 03/12/2005

raul
and I agree absolutely with you, "Gone Away", no debate. thanks, raul oh! only one thing more: do you believe that the publisher read writer in promise?
Date Added: 03/12/2005

Gone Away
I believe that most publishers these days look for work they know they can sell, Raul. That seems good business sense but has the effect of making it extremely difficult for writers with something new to ever get published. Blogs can help in that an author can point to it as an example of his skill and stamina to a publisher who is already interested. I doubt very much that they are a starting point for a publisher's interest, however. Publishers don't read blogs; they haven't the time.
Date Added: 03/12/2005

raul
It's like Kafka's castle. The protagonist want to work in the castle but all are impediment, barriers. When the protagonist died the castle wall is opened. Kafka logic in his writing is that the world have not straightforward way get what you want. In the middle there are a burocracy or people that have no interest in your work and as say Baudrillard in "the fatal strategy": The object (in this case publisher) have the power, because you have desire but object dont. The object as more cunning than the subject. http://www.ubishops.ca/baudrillardstudies/edit.htm
Date Added: 03/12/2005

Gone Away
All true, Raul. So what do we do? Keep trying, I guess. :)
Date Added: 04/12/2005

raul
"keep trying" I found it in The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka: http://www.authorama.com/metamorphosis-1.html It was a simple matter to throw off the covers; he only had to blow himself up a little and they fell off by themselves. But it became difficult after that, especially as he was so exceptionally broad. He would have used his arms and his hands to push himself up; but instead of them he only had all those little legs continuously moving in different directions, and which he was moreover unable to control. If he wanted to bend one of them, then that was the first one that would stretch itself out; and if he finally managed to do what he wanted with that leg, all the others seemed to be set free and would move about painfully. “This is something that can’t be done in bed”, Gregor said to himself, “so don’t keep trying to do it”.
Date Added: 04/12/2005

Gone Away
Kafka had good reasons to be pessimistic, Raul. None of his writing was published in his lifetime... ;)
Date Added: 04/12/2005