Peugeot-Citroen Ponders 15/12/2008 On the day I manage to get back online, I notice a rumor that Peugeot-Citroen may be interested in buying the Honda F1 team. As an old Citroen man, thanks to an AX14TZS I owned for many years a while back, I would love to see the "other" French manufacturer back in F1.Hopefully, the group would use the Citroen badge, Peugeot no doubt still smarting from their previous foray into the sport and involved in Le Mans racing at the moment. Citroen has had an impressive run in various rallying ventures and might be ready for a new challenge.I particularly like the suggested driver line-up for such a team: Jenson Button and Sebastien Bourdais. Jenson has more or less pledged to stick with the outfit and has earned another year after surviving the disaster of the last two seasons. And I am sure we all want Bourdais to have a drive next year so that he can show us how good he is when things go right. Toro Rosso look increasingly likely to drop him in favor of a pay driver so a move to a Honda/Citroen team would be exactly what he needs.Of course, it is only a rumor and so could easily disappear with the morning mists. This one makes sense in so many ways, however, that there may be some substance to it. Most importantly from the fans' point of view, it would keep a team in the sport at a moment when confidence in the future has been shaken.In fact, Honda's chosen time to withdraw looks increasingly ill-judged as matters develop. The team was promising to be a lot more competitive in 2009 and the FOTA/FIA agreement on cost-cutting is a good start on making the sport more affordable. Although the huge drop in car sales in the States is cited as the reason for Honda's withdrawal, this may not be as drastic or long-lasting a downturn as initially thought; gasoline prices in America have been so high as to discourage new car buying but prices have recently dropped again. If the market recovers quickly, Honda's decision may look rather hasty and unnecessary.So I am hoping that PSA will indeed buy the team. The possibility introduces a ray of light into a situation that has looked very gloomy of late and F1 could do with an influx of a new force.
Clive
Dank Maybe they'll poach Loeb from WRC now that he appears to be growing tired of it? I can but dream! Date Added: 15/12/2008
donwatters Ok, if Puegeot/Citroen is one, and David Richards is two, who do you think is the third "qualified" buyer B. Eccelstone was talking about last week? Date Added: 15/12/2008
Clive Dank: The thought did cross my mind while I was writing the post - I thought maybe that was being too hopeful! But, judging by his recent test in a F1 car, Loeb would do well and, who knows, the RoC might have given him a taste for circuit racing! If he can swing a test drive in a rally car for DC so easily, maybe he can persuade Citroen to have a go at F1 too... Date Added: 15/12/2008
Clive Don: You'd have to ask Bernie about that, I think. After all, no one would have guessed at PSA being interested a day or so ago. There are lots of possibilities but serious contenders like Richards and PSA are a bit thin on the ground. VW/Audi? I'll believe that when I see it! Maybe one of the Korean or Indian manufacturers would be prepared to give it a go... Date Added: 15/12/2008
marc I think you are right that the PSA possibility makes sense. It is said that they haven't been hit as hard as other manufacturers in this downturn which leaves them some cash that other manufacturers may not have to put toward running such an outfit. It also seems to fit that they would be looking for a new challenge after dominating WRC so completely. Toyota made a similar jump, but it coincided with a disqualification of their WRC entry due to technical infringements (I think). One could make the argument that PSA already has that new challenge in the form of the LeMans entry, and it is quite competitive. Peeling that onion a little further shows that almost all their drivers are ex F1 pilots. And if you believe the running commentary, it is said that the Peugeot car was built more like a sprinter than like an endurance racer. All those things combined made me wonder if Peugeot wasn't positioning itself to make the switch before any of this Honda business ever happened. However, if you put PSA aside, what I cannot understand is why David Richards hasn't snapped Honda up. He has been waiting in the wings for the opportunity to enter F1 for some time. He came within a hair's breadth of entering when there was still a possibility of running a customer car. Why wouldn't he jump at the chance to enter when most of the research cost associated with being a constructor is done for him? Not too mention that he has a history with the team from when they were BAR. Am I missing something?Even if I am missing a piece of the puzzle, I would love to see both Richards and PSA enter. The most logical progression of events would be Richards taking up Honda and PSA making a separate entry all together. I can't see it happening next season, but if Richards gets Honda, I can't imagine a better scenario than having PSA enter a team in 2010. And, sure, make it Citroen F1. Date Added: 15/12/2008
chunter I have to admit, that's some of the best news I've heard in a while, though there's a pseudo-problem here:Citroen F1 is a bit more expensive than say, some non-manufacturing based owner buying engines from another manufacturer. There's a part of me that wants to see Honda invent a way to stay in F1 by selling engines again, and selling to a privateer would ensure this.Any word on what has come of the remains of Super Aguri? Being under receivership, at least their assets should be, or should have been, available for sale... Date Added: 15/12/2008
Clive Marc: I think Dave Richards got his hands badly burnt when he tried to enter F1 with Prodrive. The FIA let him down badly and it cost him a fair bit of money with nothing to show for it. His experience with BAR taught him that building the chassis is an expensive business and, ideally, he wants to enter the game with a customer car. Honda has a car for 2009 which would save him a lot of money but beyond that he would have to get involved in chassis construction again - not what he wants. If he waits a little longer, customer cars may become a viable proposition again and that would be the time to enter. Taking on Honda would be a gamble that experience has shown may not pay off.Having said which, I would be happy if either he or PSA bought the team - at least, we'd still have a reasonable number of entrants. Date Added: 15/12/2008
Pink Peril The move would make sense certainly. Plus would Citroen entering help keep Renault in the game? Main competitor and all that.I too think Honda made a hasty decision, which they may well regret. Its earned them a lot of bad press, and with the Honda CFX or whatever its called in production right now, surely the exposure from F1 could have only helped the launch of that car? Especially if the gains in performance rumoured had come to fruitition.Whats that old saying, act in haste, repent in leisure? Date Added: 16/12/2008
Clive I think that was why the Honda withdrawal sent such shock waves through the F1 world, Peril - the sudden decision and immediate action. It struck me then as being an over-hasty reaction to some poor returns in the market (other manufacturers were reporting the same drop in sales) and it looks just as bad now. Date Added: 16/12/2008
verasaki welcome back, clive. i'd love to see peugeot return, regardless of how let down i was their last time out. but, would it entice renault to stay? not if they're sincere in exiting. why not ask if honda's exit will make toyota feel justified in leaving the field. that may be more likely. i think honda's logic is called preemptive damage control. it's pretty difficult to justify making extensive cuts in their auto division while throwing millions into racing efforts. it just wouldn't look good on the front page of any newspaper. their exit may indeed be premature-i don't think we'll know for sure for several more months, but i think they'd regret staying a lot more if they do have to shut down a plant or two and cut several thousand jobs and then send a f1 car out every other weekend. interesting times, yeh? at least it seems to put paid to the ludicrous idea of kers. too bad so many teams blew whatever money they did on it. Date Added: 16/12/2008
Clive Interesting times indeed, Vera. I can see why Honda decided to cut their losses so quickly but just feel that they may have been reacting to a temporary slump. The company still makes a profit (unlike Ford, GM and the Chrysler group) so I cannot see why a decision was so urgent. But I'm sure they have their reasons, as you say.As for KERS, Honda probably spent more on it than any of the teams so far... Date Added: 16/12/2008
F1Wolf Grandprix.com sugested this PSA link only day or two after Honda's withdrawal.http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21028.htmlso it is not that new link ...Honda's withdrawal may prove to be ill-timed, and probably was. but ... would any of these FOTA FIA moves ever happen without a major player withdrawing from F1 ?I may be wrong, but I still do not buy this PSA foray into F1. how can any car maker justify in today's situation to enter F1, no matter how sweet the deal is ?also - would Honda actually like to pass the torch to PSA ? company that closely cooperates with Toyota, runs the joint factory with Toyota (just google TCPA) and builds the same (only slightly different looking) car with Toyota ?weirder things than this happened and at the end money will talk so one can never say never, but I would really be surprised if this was anything else than just a rumour Date Added: 16/12/2008
donwatters Apprarently PSA has put the kibosh on the entering F1 rumours. Date Added: 16/12/2008
Steven Roy According to Autosport (I think) two groups have approached David Richards to head up their bid. The Magma Group which is head by ex-Ford man Martin Leach and an Arab consortium. If Richards takes up either of these offers Prodrive will operate the team but be paid to do so. No dout they will given a minority shareholding but DR will have nothing at risk beyond his reputation. I doubt there is a smarter operator in th business than Richards.PSA is an interesting possibility and they have followed the Toyota line of rallying then sportscars. Whether they will do F1 I am unsure. I am not remotely convinced that they will get involved. Maybe they will buy Renault when they pull out. I am sure that they woud love the publicity from that. If they do a start up they will be subject to the usual French governement pressure to build in France and use French everything which in the end was what crippled Prost. The reason that Renault have achieved more as a team this time than with the turbos is they bought an existing team in England and kept out of the way as much as possibile.Super Aguri's assets were auctioned off months ago. The factory still exists but everything in it was sold off. Date Added: 16/12/2008
Nick PSA has now totally denied interest in F1 and I wouldn't doubt it was Bernie who planted this rumour to increase the perceived value of the team as Brawn and others have been doing. The reality is that the new cost cutting measures should mean that any buyer would have to fire two thirds of ex-honda employees and reduce facilities and production costs by a similar amount. With that in mind, why would anyone looking to enter F1 start by buying the biggest, most expensive and slowest (nearly) team? It would make more sense to start from scratch or buy a team like Toro Rosso which already exists at the size the new cost cutting measures are supposed to pare teams down to. I know we all want the team to stay, but buying the Honda team right now would be the absolute dumbest way, and time, to enter the sport. Date Added: 16/12/2008
marc Nick makes an excellent point. However, the selling points for Honda may be the high end payroll, like Brawn, and the KERS research (assuming they get to keep that bit). STR would seem a better buy given the FIA imposed budget limitations. However, would a STR buyer have to build up a chassis dept?I know customer cars are de facto allowed, and I went back and read about ProDrive and their customer car fiasco... So in the current situation I cannot imagine a scenario where teams would be allowed to continue with customer cars barring a change in the rules.There is an obvious argument is that it keeps teams in the game by keeping their costs down. So at what point will they make it legitimate to do so? This may be a question for another string, but can anybody help me understand where this issue is headed? Date Added: 16/12/2008
Clive Well, I did say it was only a rumor! I happened to like the idea, that's all, and still think it would be great if PSA did give F1 a bash.As for Marc's question regarding customer cars, it is anyone's guess as to when this issue will be dealt with. The FIA have dithered over it for so long that I begin to doubt that they will ever force a solution. And, in that case, customer cars will remain illegal and STR has no chance of finding a buyer (it is this problem which makes Honda a far more tempting purchase than STR - it's the chassis-constructing facilities that matter at the moment). Date Added: 17/12/2008
Steven Roy It would be a lot more expensive and risky to start from scratch than to buy Honda. The cost of designing and building a plant then recruiting and building the team then designing and building a car from scratch is horrifically expensive.On the other hand you could buy an existing team like honda who have everything in place to go racing this year other than sponsorship. So instead of having to do everything from the ground up and finance 2009 with no sponsorship income all you have to do is rationalise the team and raise the sponsorship thatyou have to do either way. Except with honda you are raising sponsorship to go racing in March and giving you sponsors exposure rather than raising sponsorship to build a plant and and asking the sponsor to wait 15 months before they get any TV time.It really is a no contest. STR is an option but you are then committed to Italy and the knowledge that everyone of any ability in your team would rather be at Ferrari. If you have Honda you can recruit people from all the other teams around. Date Added: 17/12/2008
Clive Exactly, Steven. I couldn't have put it better myself. Date Added: 17/12/2008
Nick Steven, you may be correct that starting a team from scratch would be more expensive and difficult than buying an existing team, but why would someone buy a team with nearly 600 personnel and costs of $500 million a year when current cost cutting measures are meant to create teams of 100 to 150 personnel and costs of $150 million a year in 2010?This is the reason the Honda team will not be sold, it is 5 times as large as what is supposed to be needed in one year and it has nothing to show for its size except a chassis based around an engine that can't be used next season (and can't be tested until March), a KERS that will need to be adapted to a new engine and can't be used after next season and a contract with Ross Brawn. The team has everything needed to compete in F1 2 years ago and everything that is a liability over the next two years. So what does a buyer get besides a car that may or may not be ready to compete well next season and a huge amount of costs that will have to be cut anyway? Date Added: 18/12/2008
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