Pouring Trouble on Oiled Waters 28/07/2008 I see that NASCAR has had a problem at Indianapolis with tires wearing out after only six laps of the oval circuit. This was solved by having caution periods every 12 laps in the race but it does bring back memories of the 2005 F1 GP at Indy. Michelin found that the tire they had brought was failing on the banked corner with the ultimate result that only the Bridgestone runners, six cars, took part in the GP.Nick Heidfeld on the NordschleifeIn a discussion that developed on a Sidepodcast blog post, it was suggested that the diamond cut surface was partly to blame for the problem:part of the problems in ‘05 were related to the diamond cut surface. who thought that would be a good idea? it wrecked tyres in a test prior to the f1 race and then it did the same when the teams arrived. now it’s doing it to nascar rubber.I do not know how true this is, but it does illustrate a point I have been thinking about for some time. The fact is that modern racing circuits are designed to accommodate the cars being used at the time; which seems reasonable until we look at the cost of creating circuits for F1 - something that has suddenly become very relevant for the owners of Donington Park in their quest to stage the British GP in 2010. Amounts over $100 million are bandied about as being required merely to get an existing circuit up to F1 standards.Are we not approaching some sort of financial limit on the amount that can be achieved by circuit design? And is it sensible to allow the limitations of the cars to dictate the parameters of the circuits? For a start, let us consider the surface needed to accommodate a modern F1 car; it must be as devoid of bumps and irregularities as is possible, approaching billiard table smoothness, in fact. And still the drivers will talk of "the bump at corner X" - naturally so, since suspension travel on the cars is almost non-existent and ground clearance minimal.The requirements of aerodynamics and ground effect have insisted upon cars that run as close to the ground as possible but, with the track surfaces as smooth as they are, there is no counterforce giving a practical balance to car design. We dream of a return to the Nordschleife at Nurburg but it can never be, not only for safety reasons, but also because there are parts of the track where a modern F1 car could not run. When Nick Heidfeld took the BMW F1 car for a couple of laps of the Nordschleife recently, he was instructed not to run on the banking at the Karousel and to keep his speed down at other points. Even thoughts of a return to Long Beach are pie in the sky unless the bumps and jumps were evened out.Grand Prix racing began on existing roads and the cars had to be designed to cope with whatever was thrown at them. This was the opposite extreme to the situation today but it did at least ensure that designers had to take into account the conditions the cars would encounter. They were practical machines that you could drive home after the race.This continued until the seventies, when the arrival of wings and, later, ground effect, began to insist on the cars having a reasonably smooth surface to run on. Circuits moved with the times or were abandoned accordingly and the FIA began to stipulate parameters for circuit design. With each advance in the circuits, the cars took more advantage on the aerodynamic front and now we have a situation where we have to limit all sorts of aspects of the cars to prevent them becoming impossibly fast.It may be that it is time to turn the clock back a bit and allow circuits to be a bit more primitive. With street circuits multiplying, this is an ideal chance to do just that. Never mind the FIA inspections to ensure that everything is within stated limits - let the cars cope with the irregularities of city streets just as they are.I am not proposing that we introduce artificial bumps on existing circuits. There is no need to do that since the presence on the calendar of two or three "rough" circuits would dictate that the cars be designed to cope. And the result would be more suspension travel, more ground clearance and less downforce. There would have to be a return to mechanical grip, something we have been wanting for a long time.The FIA is trying to reduce downforce drastically with the rule changes due to take effect next year. Much of what they are doing involves complex measurements and systems to ensure that the rules are complied with (the adjustable wings are going to be a major headache to police), yet the regulations are already so complicated that they give rise to endless debates and argument.Surely the aim should be simplification rather than regulation of every tiny facet of design? And, as part of that equation, we should be thinking about freeing up circuit design as well, it being another way in which the engineers can be forced to live in the real world.
Clive
Steven Roy Clive,I have been arguing this point for many years now. It is up to the teams to design cars for the circuit rather than the responsibility to constantly rework the circuits to suit the cars. Max is always on about the environment, reducing downforce and making F1 road relevant. All of these are aided if you race on anything but a billiard table. How efficient is a difuser going to be if you add a few bumps? First it won't be constantly close enough to the ground to generate massive downforce and secondly if it is run too close to the ground over a bump it is going to get smashed to pieces.It is amazing how different a surface feels in a race car compared to a road car. When I was at racing driver school we frequently switched from road cars with an instructor to FFords. In a road car the circuit (Aintree) seemed OK. It wasn't billiard table smooth like Silverstone but it was smoother than a normal road. In the single seater after a dozen laps resulted in a painful jaw as I had unintentionally clamped my jaw shut to stop my teeth banging together and that is an FFord with no downforce, no power, lots of suspension travel and high sidewalls on the tyres. At the time the circuit had not run a GP for a couple of decades so was not in tip top condition.I have been lucky to drive on a few circuits and the difference between Silverstone and the others which did not have a GP was night and day and that was in a mildly modified Ford Escort XR3. The difference would be massively more in a race car.SOme of the 'massive' bumps drivers complain about cannot even be felt in a road car so it is not necessary to create moguls simply to let nature take its course. The end result would be cars with more compliant suspension, reduced downforce and less sensitive aerodynamics, marginally slower speeds. All of which contribute to better racing. Date Added: 28/07/2008
Clive I have only tried go-karting, Steven, but it was enough to give me a feel of what modern race cars with virtually no suspension travel must be like. Several of the teenage kids we took kart racing would have huge bruises all over their backs the day after - but they were still avid for more!Perhaps the most surprising thing is that we don't hear more often of back problems being experienced by ex-F1 drivers in later life - perhaps those who experienced the harsh suspensions of the last two decades or so are not yet old enough to have such problems surface.I do think racing circuits should be reasonably smooth - about on a par with a recently-constructed highway, say - but even that would tax F1 drivers beyond endurance and force more compliant suspension and clearance to be used. And, as you say, the improvement to the racing would be enormous. Date Added: 28/07/2008
Steven Roy I have had my share of bruises in karts but not for a while unfortunately. Must get back into one. I found it incredibly painful the first couple of times I did it but after that the body adjusts and there is no pain at all. Very strange. Maybe I just got faster and concentrated on that rather than the pain when I was slow.I am sure we will hear about back pain from drivers in the future. I am surprised more ex-drivers don't use their position to improve the lot of the current drivers. I can only recall Derek Warwick speaking out about the effect racing had on his hearing for example. Date Added: 28/07/2008
Keith Collantine I'm with Steven. Also, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a test prior to the F1 race in 2005 - they didn't discover the problems until the race weekend.Oh and I'm up for a bit of karting any time guys :-) Date Added: 28/07/2008
Clive A Blogger's Kart GP is a brilliant idea! Unfortunately and ignoring the problem of the pond, I think I would have to remain a spectator. The old heart is a bit dodgy these days and even ten years ago any kart race put a severe strain on it. I did it then regardless, so strong is my urge to compete, but I think now better sense would prevail. Go for it, young 'uns (and Steven!), and Ill do the commentating from the side. :D Date Added: 28/07/2008
Steven Roy Oi! There was no need for that. I am still only 27. I have been 27 for a number of years and see no reason to get any older. I believe a person's age has nothing to do with how old they are and age is simply a random number.If someone can find a way of organising a race I am game. Date Added: 28/07/2008
chunter Note that although the solution was garbage, Nascar knew how to come up with a solution that kept the field full and the race on. Keith should add that to the list of things F1 can take from Nascar. Not that I'd solve 2005 with safety car periods, however; it's more the point that Nascar found a solution familiar to their audience. (I would've asked Tony George to install an impromtu tire chicane or some curbing to solve 2005. Only the outside of Indy's four corners are banked, and not very steeply.)The best kind of karting I've ever done was last winter, they were indoor electrics, but they had enough torque to let their tires loose. By the end of the day, I was able to go around the whole course (which had two double-hairpin complexes) without lifting, blissfully ruining the rear tires and drawing the ire of the park attendants for refusing to brake. At the end of the day, I was sore in several places and very motion-sick. It seems odd that an indoor electric park would have better karts than an outdoor one with way-too-restricted gas karts, but that's the US for you. Date Added: 28/07/2008
chunter I forgot to agree with the notion that the cars should suit the surface. IRL cars are stiff, low-running ground effect cars, and they also run a specified tire. You don't hear Indy teams complain that they go through tires too quickly, and if I remember correctly, a set of tires is expected to run about 20 laps at the Indy 500.At other ovals, Indy cars often scrape their undersides with a full fuel load, making sparks on the track surface. Unlike the board under an F1, this is normal practice, not a penalty. Date Added: 28/07/2008
Clive Steven: Ooops, wrong Steven! Sorry, I had you confused with another Steven I know who is about my age. Humble apologies, of course. Date Added: 28/07/2008
Clive Chunter: The wooden board was fitted to F1 cars to ensure that they were maintaining the required ground clearance - if I remember correctly, if more than 2mm are shaved off the board by the end of the race, it is assumed that the car has been running too low and it is disqualified. This actually happened to Michael Schumacher at Spa in the year the board was introduced. Prior to that, F1 cars used to give truly pyrotechnic displays of sparks as they bottomed out in the corners.Your experience of karting is the exact opposite of mine. We were given dire warnings not to brake too much since the brakes wore out incredibly quickly! Their tires had so little grip that I think they're probably still using the set they gave me. ;) Date Added: 29/07/2008
Pink Peril I am up for a bloggers go kart - of course the logistics would be a touch difficult to organise ! Haven't been karting since I lived in Edinburgh & went out in the snow once, which was excellent. Yikes - just did a quick calculation and that is nearly ten years ago now. My bad. In regards to the topic of the article, I totally agree that the cars should adapt to the track rather than the other way around. Just think of how many great tracks - and therefore possibly great races - we miss out on because current F1 cars literally cannot run there. Instead we get stuck with dud tracks like Catalunya & Tilke-dromes.I'd like to see them run at Bathurst, Laguna Seca and the Nordschleife among others, and with a few tweaks it'd be possible. Never happen though, so I must dream on.... Date Added: 29/07/2008
Steven Roy Sounds like you must have been at Raceland near Haddington. It's 12 years since I drove there. Great track and real good equipment. I loved those twin engined karts. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Pink Peril Yep - that's the place Steven. Now I'm getting all homesick for my adopted home of Scotland. Cannae beleive it were such a long time ago the noo ;) Date Added: 29/07/2008
Steven Roy So few foreigners make an attempt at the local language so it is nice to see you are practically fluent. Much better than just settling for speaking English. Such a limited language.I haven't been in a kart in a few years and until this conversation started I wasn't overly bothered about it. Now I just want to race.I guess if we were going to to a race for bloggers and hangers on like myself the logical place to do it would be Autosport International. There must be a suitable track near there. That gives me a few months to get training, get back on a track, start carbohydrate loading and find a sports psychologist. Of course it would only be for fun and I don't mind if I don't win.Keith,what have you started? Date Added: 29/07/2008
Alianora La Canta Adapting cars to the track is eminently sensible. Otherwise we'll get F1 cars that can't run on any track in the universe, apart from anything else...One reason that you don't hear much about ex-F1 drivers' back problems is that the rise of the low-travel suspension in F1 coincided (well, almost) with the rise of the physiotherapist in that series. So the back problems tend to be significantly reduced. Also, to make it in F1, it helps if you don't moan too much about stuff, so those drivers who developed back problems as a result of racing with stiff suspensions are unlikely to make much noise about it, even after retirement when presumably they don't need to keep quiet any more.I can't find anything on tyre problems in testing at Indianapolis in 2005 (for any series). I'd be happy to take part in an F1 Blogger's Race, though I don't have a karting licence, any experience (apart from two-and-a-half minutes at American Adventure Theme Park 10 years ago) or indeed equipment. I'd probably need the venue to be one of those "arrive-and-drive" tracks like in Sheffield. Mind you, they're also quite often the cheapest way to run such races, since they take care of the more complex aspects of the race while we concentrate on the racing side of things. There'd probably need to be multiple races (one per country) until everyone manages to co-ordinate acquiring passports, holiday entitlement and funds for a more international effort.There's an indoor circuit in Birmingham city centre called Teamworks that could suit our purposes (assuming we could get enough bloggers to Autosport). They do multi-heat races at £40.50 per driver (I think this is before online discount, but I'm not sure), so as long as we could get 10 drivers there and didn't race at the weekend (when 15 drivers are necessary), we could have the track to ourselves. Price includes safety gear, helmets, safety briefing and some practise laps, though anyone with their own safety gear and helmets may bring their own.Races typically occur in the afternoon or early evening, though it's so far ahead of time that I don't know exactly what time an F1 Blogger's Race there would be held. We really could do with the race being as late as possible (the last time listed is 18:30) so that we could enjoy the full value of our Autosport tickets. Unfortunately, the karts in question appear have only one engine, but it does produce 10hp, so novices like me probably will find the experience pretty powerful anyway.Clive could be chief correspondent - he talks enough sense to fill that role well, and it would be a job requiring a really good view of the track... Date Added: 29/07/2008
Mad I'll volunteer to drive for F1 Insight. :) Date Added: 29/07/2008
Alianora La Canta By the way, if we did go with that way of doing the F1 Blogger's Karting event, I recommend we use the train to do the bulk of the journey. Birmingham International Station is quite close to the NEC where Autosport is held, and the next stop down the line (Birmingham New Street) is in turn quite close to the kart track. Service is extremely regular (when I went to the Library + Information Show there in 2007, there seemed to be a train doing that route every five minutes) and the shortness of the route makes the tickets relatively cheap.Otherwise you're looking at something approaching £20 for a taxi, assuming you don't drive. And if you did drive, I'm not sure you could cover the route in 50 minutes, which is the suggested time for the public transport route (which includes generous times for walking). If we got the 18:30 start with the karting, we'd only be leaving Autosport less than an hour before it shut anyway. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Alianora La Canta Good one Mad :) "The F1 Bloggers and Friends Grand Prix" has a nice ring to it, don't you think? Date Added: 29/07/2008
Mad Cheers Alianora, it would be a great event. Plus you guys would get to see what happens when a non-driving biker is handed a kart (he crashes very, very hard!).I live very close so I could give people lifts from train stations etc, as long as they don't mind hanging onto the pillion seat of an Aprilia RSV1000. :D Date Added: 29/07/2008
Steven Roy It would have to be an indoor arrive and drive kart race. Indoor karts generally have only one engine and 10hp is a lot. Most indoor kars have either a 5.5 or 6.5 hp engine and the twin engine karts I drove had two 6.5 hp engines so 10hp on a tight indoor track would be very entertaining. 10hp is probably good for 50mph if there is a straight long enough which there almost cetainly won't be.I have only ever done arrive and drive so I have never had a license or a kart so you are not alone. Date Added: 29/07/2008
sidepodcast just to jump in. haven't had chance to read through all the comments yet so apologies if i duplicate something.doesn't autosport international already have a karting track next to the live arena? why do we need to go anywhere else?the only downside, and this is true of all karting, is it's too expensive and the price appears to be rocketing up with fuel costs.we'll need some significant sponsorship to make it work i feel. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Steven Roy There is a kart track inside the event but you are not going to get more than the occasional quick run on it. There is no way you will get any kind of properly organised race meeting because it is always packed. Date Added: 29/07/2008
sidepodcast "There is a kart track inside the event but you are not going to get more than the occasional quick run on it. There is no way you will get any kind of properly organised race meeting because it is always packed"good point.i think we'll be at autosport all three days next year, so we might be a bit knackerd if we then go onto somewhere else. especially after all that walking. i guess it's only sitting down though right? Date Added: 29/07/2008
Steven Roy That's what I like to see. Get the racing driver excuses in early. If you are not up to racing you could video t and let Christine do her Murray Walker. Date Added: 29/07/2008
sidepodcast "Also, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a test prior to the F1 race in 2005 - they didn't discover the problems until the race weekend."there was keith, and firestone had to abandon it due to problems with their tyres. it has been said that this may have given bridgestone an advantage over their rivals when it came to the f1 race:http://www.insidef1.com/ns/ns15129.html"It is worth remembering that in April - before the Indianapolis 500 - the Indianapolis Motor Speedway had a test for Firestone to test its IRL tyres following the resurfacing of the track in the spring." Date Added: 29/07/2008
sidepodcast "That's what I like to see. Get the racing driver excuses in early. If you are not up to racing you could video t and let Christine do her Murray Walker. "that sounds like a bloomin' fine idea :) Date Added: 29/07/2008
sidepodcast "I can't find anything on tyre problems in testing at Indianapolis in 2005 (for any series). "alianora, your usually impeccable research has let you down :(bridgestone subsequently denied it offered them any advantage, but i'm not so sure. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Clive Well, it's all been happening while I was asleep, I see. I am green (BTG) with envy, of course, but glad that F1 Insight has found a valid driver in my son, Mad. As the web designer of the blog, he is certainly qualified to enter such a race. He also writes his own blog, one that began as a web designer's and is now morphing into one on MotoGP. The lift offered on the back of Mad's Aprilia is probably safe enough - he has broken his share of bones (his own!) in the past and is a very sensible rider these days, I'm told.If numbers are a problem (and I think we should easily achieve the minimum of ten entrants), I have an idea where more entrants might be found. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Clive That obscure reference to BTG should have been BRG, of course..oO(Edit, Clive, edit!) Date Added: 29/07/2008
Mad "he has broken his share of bones (his own!) in the past and is a very sensible rider these days, I'm told."This is the point where I go mwahahahaha. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Alianora La Canta sidepodcast, you're right. Thanks for the correction - and it does strike me as odd that no alarm bells were raised when the IRL test went wrong.I hadn't thought about the karting track at Autosport itself, largely because it was so jam-packed that organising anything more complex than a casual bash with the people accompanying you would be difficult. Date Added: 29/07/2008
donwatters Let me know if your karting event gets serious. Although I'm in the US, it sounds like it would way too much fun to miss. Date Added: 29/07/2008
Fractal I just want to book a ride on the Aprilia...afc Date Added: 30/07/2008
Pink Peril *pink wonders to herself if expense of travelling from Australia to the UK for bloggers karting race is justifiable*Or perhaps once the inaugural race has been held, follow up meets could be timed to coincide with mine & other international bloggers visits to the UK? After all, I do have family & friends there who are sorely in need of a visit ;) Date Added: 30/07/2008
Mad Consider yourself booked Fractal :) Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive Don: It seems to be getting more serious all the time - plenty of people are obviously able and willing to attend. More is happening over at Sidepodcast in the comments to Christine's latest article, so it's worth keeping an eye on that too. Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive Fractal and Mad: You both seem to be quite serious about this. If it happens, I want a full blow-by-blow report! Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive Peril: Seems a fair distance to travel to compete in a kart race. Having said which, it's still one more reason you can add to the list of excuses to visit the UK. Certainly worth a try. ;) Date Added: 30/07/2008
sidepodcast "Don: It seems to be getting more serious all the time"having slept on it, i'm more enthused than ever. was contemplating putting mini video cameras on each kart, but mr. roy pointed out the impracticalities of that idea. must think harder.i like this mostly though because aside from the odd story here and there, bloggers pretty much comment on "other people's news". but in this instance we'd be creating the news.i guess the challenge is to get the press to report on *this* event :) Date Added: 30/07/2008
Steven Roy Apologies for ruining your fun. I just can't help looking at the practicalities of things as I have been doing that at work for so long. I think you said the cameras were designed for R/C models. You could blag an R/C helicopter and do a track guide. Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive While we're getting carried away with ideas, it might be worth trying to get the media interested. It connects well with Autosport International and is strange enough (to the outside world - bloggers, what are they?) to be worth a short news item. That should increase general interest in F1 and in its related media outlets on the net (namely, us). Date Added: 30/07/2008
donwatters Perhaps this event could be scheduled near the weekend of the British GP. That way Pink & I could have one more justification for attending. Date Added: 30/07/2008
Lonny Not to ruin anyone's fun (don't I wish I had the bucks to think about a trip over there) but back on topic: I never had the time or dollars to race the real thing but I've raced lots of different model cars and the same thing happened there. The tracks adapted to the cars so that the cars could go faster. And that's what this is really about, for F1 to adapt to a less smooth track it would have to slow down and to most racers that is unthinkable. Date Added: 30/07/2008
Alianora La Canta Pink Peril and donwatters, I would think that follow-up events could be organised - worldwide if this takes off.sidepodcast, I suppose if you could persuade Stuart from your blog to attend, that would probably take care of the professional reportage side of things ;)Steven, that R/C helicopter track guide sounds cool. Maybe there could be some sort of commission from the track owners as well, for them to use it to market their track... Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive Don: Autosport International in January seems to have recommended itself as an event that is central to England and that many bloggers and readers were going to attend anyway. I think it is the best chance for the kart race to take place this time, therefore. And subsequent races could be arranged to suit others, however. Date Added: 30/07/2008
Clive Lonny: Speeds in F1 have not actually increased much over the last forty years or so - as fast as the cars get quicker, the legislators devise new ways to slow them down. Allowing the tracks to be less than perfect in design will slow the cars to some extent but not enough to be noticeable by spectators. And the races will be a good deal more interesting to watch - take a look at old photographs of cars leaping at the Flugplatz on the Nordschleife to see what I mean!It is quite likely that open wheel racers are about as fast now as they can be and still driven by humans. That is why there is the constant struggle between engineers and rules that has resulted in a stalemate over rising speeds. And to allow rougher circuits would be a part of the drive to keep speeds down. The engineers will cope, believe me! Date Added: 30/07/2008
Steven Roy "Steven, that R/C helicopter track guide sounds cool. Maybe there could be some sort of commission from the track owners as well, for them to use it to market their track..."I thought I had a good business brain and I totally missed that. Nice one Ali. Date Added: 30/07/2008
sidepodcast "Steven, that R/C helicopter track guide sounds cool. Maybe there could be some sort of commission from the track owners as well, for them to use it to market their track..."the only flaw(s) in that plan, is not only do we not own a radio controlled helicopter, but we don't possess the requisite skills to fly one on a lap of a track either.we won't let a thing like that stop us though, eh? Date Added: 31/07/2008
Steven Roy The reason I suggested blagging a helicopter is that it is a near certainty the owner would insist on piloting it solving both problems. Given the number of people we know online who are into gadgets there must be a few that have a helicopter and are reasonably competent pilots. Come on guys we know you are there. Date Added: 31/07/2008
donwatters Works just fine for me. What is Autosport International? Date Added: 31/07/2008
Steven Roy donwatters,It is a huge motorsport show a bit like one of the big car shows but motor racing, rallying etc rather than road cars. They have a live action arena and a rally stage as well and a lot of the big names will turn up.The url below is actually for the 2009 show even though it has 2008 in it.http://www.autosport-international.com/autosport08/intro.htm Date Added: 31/07/2008
Alianora La Canta I don't have an R/C helicopter. Unfortunately, the model shop I have easiest access to doesn't have any either (though it does have a selection of R/C aircraft, including four different ones at £20 each.What I would say is that if the circuit owner delegates the plane flying to someone, please don't pick me, since my co-ordination is lousy. Which is OK in a kart race to a certain extent (as long as I don't get in anyone's way or crash), but not in a track guide recording.don, I went to Autosport in 2007 and it was good. Confusing at times, but good. Date Added: 31/07/2008
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